Discussion topic

[75]

It's not as smooth online. Offline, you don't notice it, but online, you get jerked into the other area.

[TrueDude]

Dunno if this is the right topic but I made a map based on another DK Multiplayer level for this.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/q7va1g

[75]

You can post maps anywhere you like, as long as I can find them

I played the map with bots, and here is my feedback:

-There aren't enough weapons. The only weapon that isn't in a secret area is the Large Zorcher, and it's on that platform up there. If you spawn somewhere else, you have to walk up there, which is a long enough walk to get you zorched.

- No health, and only small ammunition.

- You put your teleporters in the middle of the arena. This was fine for DK64, because in that game you had to push a button to be teleported. In Doom, or Chex Quest, you teleport by running over them, which means that it's very easy to get teleported accidentally, which happened to me several times.

Also - in doom, if you cross the teleporter line, even if you're not ON the teleporter, you will still be teleported. There were quite a few times when I was just trying to get to ground level, but I got teleported because I crossed a teleporter line in midair.

For this reason, I moved the teleporters in ZM03 to little caves. In that system, nobody can trigger them by accident.

-Your layout doesn't give a lot of cover. Since Skulltag uses hitscan weapons and fast projectiles, the DK64 layout doesn't work as well, because you need to find cover immediately.

It's a challenge to try to avoid fire, which I find rather fun, it makes me think and plan my movements to make sure I have cover.

Is it an unnecessary element of challenge, though? I am not certain.

I design my maps so that cover is only a second away, but is that necessary?



- This map has very poor detail for a doom engine game.



A single texture, repeating from floor to ceiling, is not a good idea.

      -Those textures are only 128x128, so it makes your level look like it were made out of textured lego bricks.
     - It's unrealistic for a cavern (if that was what you intended) - caverns never have a single plane wall from top to bottom.
       This room looks like a textured lego brick barrel

Think carefully about what these areas might be. For example, what is the purpose of the gray wall area, and the sewer area? Develop them into areas that look like something, and it will look much better.

Also, there is no transition from one texture to another. It doesn't make sense to have a panel of Bazoik walls, then a sewer right next to it without some section of map which explains how those two areas came to be next to each other.



These floor and ceiling textures are sloppily used, and this room has too much white in it.

Also -  you shouldn't hide those areas as secrets, they would be useful for the layout, and it is very hard to see them.

- Your bridge midtextures don't line up


That's everything I can think of right now, there's one aspect of this map that needs to be fixed that I would like to mention, but right now I can't explain it.

I hope this review helps

[MajorSlime]

I think I remember playing that map...

Anyways, the side passages are supposed to be secret. Its in the map. I'm not sure why, but...

Also, the DK64 map had different colored walls where he used the different textures. I'm gonna suggest he, or someone else, makes new different colored cave textures. It could use some detail though...

As for the teleporters, you could always make it so you had to press a button. That would require some advanced scripting though... If you want to do it, though, Truedude, I know how, so you can always ask me for help.

P.S. this is all assuming you haven't played that map, 75. If you have, please let me know, and correct me if I might be wrong on some cases.

[75]

I did play the map.

It wouldn't be hard to make the switches push button, but I would prefer it if you just jumped somewhere, since that's what you normally do when you see a teleporter.

[TrueDude]

Before I start the response, I will say that I based this so much on the original map that I probably should've spent at least some time actually converting it to Chex properly rather than just a straight port.

-There aren't enough weapons. The only weapon that isn't in a secret area is the Large Zorcher, and it's on that platform up there. If you spawn somewhere else, you have to walk up there, which is a long enough walk to get you zorched.

Ok, I'll move the weapons to the middle area. (Minus the really secret BFG's)

- No health, and only small ammunition.

No health? That's strange. I placed it in more than one area... I will add some more ammunition though.

There is quite a bit of health under the water though. Is there a way to make the water surface transparent?

- You put your teleporters in the middle of the arena. This was fine for DK64, because in that game you had to push a button to be teleported. In Doom, or Chex Quest, you teleport by running over them, which means that it's very easy to get teleported accidentally, which happened to me several times.

Dunno how to fix this without ruining the map.

Also - in doom, if you cross the teleporter line, even if you're not ON the teleporter, you will still be teleported. There were quite a few times when I was just trying to get to ground level, but I got teleported because I crossed a teleporter line in midair.

Dunno how to fix this, though this would likely be easier than the other way.

For this reason, I moved the teleporters in ZM03 to little caves. In that system, nobody can trigger them by accident.

-Your layout doesn't give a lot of cover. Since Skulltag uses hitscan weapons and fast projectiles, the DK64 layout doesn't work as well, because you need to find cover immediately.

It's a challenge to try to avoid fire, which I find rather fun, it makes me think and plan my movements to make sure I have cover.

Is it an unnecessary element of challenge, though? I am not certain.

I design my maps so that cover is only a second away, but is that necessary?

I enjoy the extra challenge that this adds to this map.

Graphics (Or lack thereof)

This is because it's a direct copy of the original mostly. I will likely add more detail to compensate.

Also -  you shouldn't hide those areas as secrets, they would be useful for the layout, and it is very hard to see them.

This was like this in the original.

I hope this review helps

It did, thank you.


ChexMaster2109, I would like it if you showed a way to do that. It would fix the teleporter problem without ruining the map flow.

[75]

Is there a way to make the water surface transparent?

If you can figure out how to use Stacked Sectors (which I am not good at) for water, you can make translucent water. Otherwise, no.

- You put your teleporters in the middle of the arena. This was fine for DK64, because in that game you had to push a button to be teleported. In Doom, or Chex Quest, you teleport by running over them, which means that it's very easy to get teleported accidentally, which happened to me several times.

Dunno how to fix this without ruining the map.

Hmm... what I would recommend is: Get rid of the teleporters on the top, and move the teleporters on the bottom to caves built into the walls. Those teleporters will be one way.

ChexMaster2109, I would like it if you showed a way to do that. It would fix the teleporter problem without ruining the map flow.

I know what it would require to have keyboard activated switches

Since the only thing you can do with keyboard binds is inventory take/give, or starting/ending ACS scripts.  I don't see any way to do that cleanly. Also, I've had a lot of trouble with online global ACS scripts, which is what this method would require.

It could also start a script that waits for the player to push a key by using getplayerinput when they cross the front side of the linedef, and ends when they leave, but that would be a nightmare too, and would have problems if somebody died in the teleporter. , and it would take a lot of debugging.

The other alternative is to have the player hold down crouch when they enter the teleporter, but nobody would think to do that when they entered it, without some sort of instructions printed on screen. It just seems too complicated considering it would be simpler, and require less key presses to just have the player run or jump to a cave with the teleporter in it.

(At the time of my reply, I thought CM was talking about Switch activated teleporters)

[TrueDude]

I'll go with the teleporter in a small cave for the four outer teleporters, but, I'm still a bit torn what to do with the other ones. I could put some kind of warning up around them so you know where they're at.

[75]

Even if you put up a warning, it wouldn't stop people from backing or strafing into them, which is usually how I triggered them accidentally.

You could put them in little caves off to the side on the second floor, they would still be helpful

[MajorSlime]

Something about the teleport in midair: I usually use sector actions for my teleporters (player touching floor).

[TrueDude]

New beta. I haven't done much with the tower teleporters, but they are more out of the way so we'll see if that helps at least. Major graphical overhaul. Prototype support for CTF implented as well.

NOTE: The Chex Quest Skulltag Pack has to be loaded with this now since there are some textures needed from it for one wing.

[75]

I haven't tried the new version yet, but I wanted to mention something important I discovered about deathmatch levels.

If your donkey kong map was a duel map, its layout would be fine. It would be an interesting challenge to try to keep yourself on the other side of the column as your opponent in the same room.

However, in deathmatch, with three to eight people, that column just isn't good enough. There isn't a safe place in that large room in the center, if you have 3-8 people playing, in your attempt to dodge Player A, you will be putting yourself in the line of fire of Player B. The whole idea of having cover in maps is so that you can have places you can dodge behind that are safe, if only temporary (for example, even a corner is safe for a second).


I theorize that it will be impossible to make this map's layout into a good deathmatch map - DM03 is much better suited to deathmatch. If you would like this to be a duel map, though,  I would consider putting it in.

[TrueDude]

Ok, yeah, I see what you mean. You can remove the CTF areas too. I don't mind if you modify the map in any way, as long as it gets in.

[75]

I hosted your map today as a duel map. QG, me, and Replica played on it.  Here's my feedback:

- I couldn't see very far, so I couldn't make a plan or predict which way QG was going to move. That's a very important part of Doom's gameplay, and where most of the strategy comes from in Doom. The low visibility also makes it very easy to be surprised and killed in an instant. In such an encounter, it's all luck, since neither player can see far enough ahead to avoid an attack.

- The hallways leading out form the central area look more like something, but as a whole, they don't make any sense.

- The water pool is too small in the center, if somebody were shooting at you in the pool with a propulsor, you would not be able to avoid their fire at all.

- The slopes going up are too steep, you are slowed down when you go up, and you slide slightly when you go down. Also, at that extreme angle, it's easy to hurt yourself with rockets.

- The teleporters on the top interfere with gameplay, I teleported accidentally at least 5 times. I will never accept a map with teleporters that it's even possible to accidentally run over, it's very frustrating to dodge to the right to avoid somebody's fire, and you find yourself mysteriously 40 feet away.  The lower ones are fine.

- There is very little cover in this map, aside from running behind something or going around a corner. This, combined with the low visibility, means that you have no idea which opening your opponent will come from, and you have a long way to walk to get away from him/her to safety.

-Your main room is just that gray wall, all the way up. It gives no distinction to the four distinct zones you created, yet it exists as the exterior all of them (and to all of them, it is equally unfitting).

For example, your bazoik cave is made of orange rock, yet when it opens up to the central area, it has that gray wall as its exterior. How is that possible?


- The red area lacks wall textures. When the game started, it said "Cannot find texture, 'NONE'", among other texture errors. I did load it with the main mod .pk3.

[Replica]

I found the map really hard to play in too. I get my butt kicked because I'm not that good at multiplayer, but I got my butt kicked majorly because I couldn't get a good weapon. The best weapon was in the middle of the map, where I usually ran into 75 while trying to get it. When I found the phase zorcher, I had already been beaten down pretty good, and would die soon after. (This is in part because I am terrible too. >.<)

75 pretty much stated what I was thinking for the rest of my review.